tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post2965864555584722209..comments2024-03-22T06:05:36.544-04:00Comments on Kids Prefer Cheese: How Much is Tenure Worth?Mungowitzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02340064320347875601noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-4611812589999807882007-10-26T15:12:00.000-04:002007-10-26T15:12:00.000-04:00Tenure? As a jaded and cynical refugee from publi...Tenure? As a jaded and cynical refugee from public education, please: who needs it?!<BR/><BR/>Good teachers need security only if their administrations are unscrupulous b*st*rds who prefer filling seats over graduating capable and intelligent students. Otherwise, good teachers are kept and rewarded accordingly...(Nice fantasy, huh?)<BR/><BR/>Tenure is a positive reward for those who own it? I agree, partially. I see too many who earn it and then stop functioning at all but the barest level necessary to retain said tenure. Some reward.<BR/><BR/>In all seriousness, don't reward me for surviving company politics. Reward me for doing my job.Mikihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02017555096408765987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-26414553737494532882007-10-26T09:22:00.000-04:002007-10-26T09:22:00.000-04:00Maybe I'm just blowing smoke, as usual.Indeed.You'...Maybe I'm just blowing smoke, as usual.<BR/><BR/>Indeed.<BR/><BR/>You'd never give up tenure for 10k. Who are you kidding? Not us. Not even you it seems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-54369551485724807132007-10-26T08:51:00.000-04:002007-10-26T08:51:00.000-04:00I took a job because one of the nice things was ea...I took a job because one of the nice things was easy tenure. I also learned that easy tenure was one of the worst things that came with the job once I got there because nobody was doing anything.<BR/>If you're somewhat hard working in a non-humanities field, tenure is just a substitute for universities having to pay larger salaries to bigwigs.<BR/><BR/>Tommy the EnglishmanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-8977037957011502452007-10-25T23:51:00.000-04:002007-10-25T23:51:00.000-04:00As someone who's not in a position to be bought ou...As someone who's not in a position to be bought out, I certainly would have no problem with taking a five-year, renewable contract at a small premium over a tenure-track assistant position. Heck, I might even consider leaving a TT job for a renewable one under the right circumstances.<BR/><BR/>Then again, I've already proven my utility function is atypical of most junior-level PhDs. So generalizability may be an issue.Chris Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09883587751218471785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-58895147665840371322007-10-25T21:39:00.000-04:002007-10-25T21:39:00.000-04:00I don't think I's settle for less than $100k to gi...I don't think I's settle for less than $100k to give up tenure.<BR/><BR/>oh yeah and "SNAP"!!Angushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03656436431053306500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-25915848406353819682007-10-25T21:31:00.000-04:002007-10-25T21:31:00.000-04:00Hey, Anon! Freakonomics is the curve?You're an id...Hey, Anon! Freakonomics is the curve?<BR/><BR/>You're an idiot!<BR/><BR/>My question is, "how much is tenure worth?" It has positive value to those who own it. Just getting rid of it would be an uncompensated taking.<BR/><BR/>My advice: a freshman econ class, maybe at a community college.<BR/><BR/>Chris: Good points. I agree that it is worth more. I'm just not sure that that wouldn't be a good thing. Higher pay would be nice; tenure at DSU is not that great.<BR/><BR/>As James Taylor put it, "Diploma mill work ain't that easy, diploma mill work ain't that hard. Diploma mill work ain't nothing but an awful, boring job."Mungowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02340064320347875601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-16664008338117320272007-10-25T21:24:00.000-04:002007-10-25T21:24:00.000-04:00I suspect that some of the benefits of tenure for ...I suspect that some of the benefits of tenure for actively not-bad faculty overlap with the ADEA (Age Discrimination in Employment Act) anyway, given the average age at tenure in higher education.<BR/><BR/>That said, I also suspect that the pricing effects of tenure are larger at the bottom of the market; faculty are more interchangeable at Directional State than Duke, particularly where the primary measure of output is "credit hours in seats, adjusted by mean eval score" rather than "b1*SSCI + b2*Nolan score." You'd have to pay a lot of long-tenured associates (or even assistants) much more than $10k to buy them out at DSU. (And DSU would probably have to massively boost salaries for new assistants without the pot of virtually-guaranteed tenure at the end of the rainbow.)Chris Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09883587751218471785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-10949466269105948812007-10-25T21:15:00.000-04:002007-10-25T21:15:00.000-04:00Behind the curve...http://freakonomics.blogs.nytim...Behind the curve...<BR/>http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/03/03/<BR/>lets-just-get-rid-of-tenure/<BR/>http://ideas.repec.org/a/ucp/jpolec/v96y1988i3p453-72.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-19369321219619409852007-10-25T19:41:00.000-04:002007-10-25T19:41:00.000-04:00Yeah, one time lump sum $10k.Duke is rational. It...Yeah, one time lump sum $10k.<BR/><BR/>Duke is rational. It's hard to replace senior people. No way they'd fire me, at least not for quite a while.<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm wrong, though. I'm guessing that I know some people who value it much more than that. I know that if my Dean actually offered me $10,000 to give up tenure, I wouldn't jump at the offer. I'd have to think about it. Maybe I'm just blowing smoke, as usual.<BR/><BR/>Angus is probably right, though, that one should also think in terms of renewable 5 year contracts, and some terms. But I think that Angus, and I, would get offered that. That's part of what I mean...the market protects me, and Angus also. It's hard to find productive people. Really, REALLY hard.<BR/><BR/>Now, I have not been as productive as Angus, admittedly. (Since 2001, he has published quite a bit more, and better, than I have). But the whole "experienced chairman who is not insane or deeply greedy" is even HARDER to find.<BR/><BR/>The key to not really needing tenure is WORKING.Mungowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02340064320347875601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-71351763314903750432007-10-25T19:02:00.000-04:002007-10-25T19:02:00.000-04:00Has there been any research on this? What is the v...<I>Has there been any research on this? What is the value of the contract provision "tenure" for a professor? What lump-sum cash payment would they accept to give it up?</I><BR/><BR/>Seems like we ought to be able to do this, empirically. There are fields (I'm thinking of public health, but surely others too) where tenured and non-tenured (e.g., "clinical") positions are otherwise valued, compensated, etc. similarly. Now getting the data might be another thing...<BR/><BR/>And I'm pretty sure Our Fearless Leader means a <I>one time</I> $10K. Sounds about right to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-2864952411941091962007-10-25T18:06:00.000-04:002007-10-25T18:06:00.000-04:00Mungowitz: $10k per year? or a one time payment? I...Mungowitz: $10k per year? or a one time payment? I'd give it up for 10k per year and renewable 3-5 yr contracts that specify what has to happen to get non-renewed.Angushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03656436431053306500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7464708.post-57873522645912316962007-10-25T15:11:00.000-04:002007-10-25T15:11:00.000-04:00Sir Mungowitz:Would not ambitious junior faculty p...Sir Mungowitz:<BR/><BR/>Would not ambitious junior faculty <I>pay</I> (with a lower asking price) to work with senior faculty who gave up tenure?<BR/><BR/>Why then, does this market not form?Skip Sauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09943411414091614559noreply@blogger.com