I was visiting one of my favorite colleges (Davidson) the other night. Had given a talk, and was having dinner afterwards with some students and faculty.
One young woman mentioned that she done very well in math in high school, and that she wished she had been able to take some math in college. She was an Econ major, but had taken zero calculus and then took just the one required baby-stats-by-cookbook course. (UPDATE: Why so few women economists?)
I asked why she had not "been able" to take any math in college. I knew for a fact Davidson offered math courses. (In fact, they do stuff like this, there). The young lady, obviously shocked, said, "I might have made a B! Those are hard courses!"
I couldn't let that go. I may have pointed out that she had just said that she was "really good" at math, and most people don't say that. For a woman to say she's really good at math, she must in fact be really good at math. And I may have said something like this was her only chance at an education, and the ridiculous courses (I may have said "underwater basket-weaving for beginners") she took instead were a giant waste of time. Who cares if you get an "A" in that crap? For my big finish, I said "Nobody cares about your G.P.A. You have wasted more than $150,000 here, avoiding an education." I may have been a jerk, in other words.
It was quiet for quite a while after that. It's possible I was out of line. But it's also possible I was COMPLETELY RIGHT.
Excerpt:
“Maybe women just don’t want to get things wrong,” Goldin hypothesized. “They don’t want to walk around being a B-minus student in something. They want to find something they can be an A student in. They want something where the professor will pat them on the back and say ‘You’re doing so well!’ ”
“Guys,” she added, “don’t seem to give two damns.”
So maybe the better question is: Why aren’t men scared off by rigid grading curves? Male students could be more overconfident — effectively, college bros shrug off gentleman’s C’s (or, more often today, gentleman’s B’s) as unrepresentative of their true brilliance.
Please spread the word. The "game" in college is NOT to maximize GPA. It's to maximize education, subject to the constraint of maintaining a decent GPA.
My own rule in graduate admissions: never accept anyone with a 4.0. And it's better if the person has gotten at least one "C." If there is no C in the record, it means the person is going to be just another loser who is really good at taking courses. If you could get a job taking courses, that would be the sort of person you want. But we want people who will take risks, and learn new things that are too hard to master on the first go.
(If it matters, this is self-serving, yes. I made two C's: one in an intermediate Art History class that was completely over my head, and one in Real Analysis. Finally, I made a "B" in my Intro Econ class. Nobody told me I was doing well. Because I wasn't.)
An extended discussion of the problem can be found in Megan McArdle's terrific new book, THE UP SIDE OF DOWN. It's really great, and it argues that students need to be encouraged to fail.
Or at least get a "B," fercrissakes.
(UPDATE: Claudia S. points out, on twitter [ @Claudia_Sahm ], that my "lecture" was almost certainly completely ineffective, and even counterproductive. And Claudia is right, of course. If someone is unsure of themselves then being yelled at in public by a creepy old guy like me is not really helpful. Another reader pointed out that this scene from Big Lebowski is apropos... Further, if the young woman had taken a course in math and gotten a "B," then she would no longer have thought she was "really good" at math. My point is that you should not just take courses in things in which you are already "really good", and courses in high school don't count! You need to try to get better at OTHER things. Staying inside your comfort zone is the whole problem! Figure out what you are "really bad" at, and then go take THOSE courses, to get better. So, either the young lady was "really good," and would make a good grade, or she would find out it was hard, and she wasn't really good, and so she needed to work hard to make a decent, maybe not even good, grade. That's why I look for a "C" in the transcript, as long as the course is a difficult one. Take something you are not "really good" at.)
One young woman mentioned that she done very well in math in high school, and that she wished she had been able to take some math in college. She was an Econ major, but had taken zero calculus and then took just the one required baby-stats-by-cookbook course. (UPDATE: Why so few women economists?)
I asked why she had not "been able" to take any math in college. I knew for a fact Davidson offered math courses. (In fact, they do stuff like this, there). The young lady, obviously shocked, said, "I might have made a B! Those are hard courses!"
I couldn't let that go. I may have pointed out that she had just said that she was "really good" at math, and most people don't say that. For a woman to say she's really good at math, she must in fact be really good at math. And I may have said something like this was her only chance at an education, and the ridiculous courses (I may have said "underwater basket-weaving for beginners") she took instead were a giant waste of time. Who cares if you get an "A" in that crap? For my big finish, I said "Nobody cares about your G.P.A. You have wasted more than $150,000 here, avoiding an education." I may have been a jerk, in other words.
It was quiet for quite a while after that. It's possible I was out of line. But it's also possible I was COMPLETELY RIGHT.
Excerpt:
“Maybe women just don’t want to get things wrong,” Goldin hypothesized. “They don’t want to walk around being a B-minus student in something. They want to find something they can be an A student in. They want something where the professor will pat them on the back and say ‘You’re doing so well!’ ”
“Guys,” she added, “don’t seem to give two damns.”
So maybe the better question is: Why aren’t men scared off by rigid grading curves? Male students could be more overconfident — effectively, college bros shrug off gentleman’s C’s (or, more often today, gentleman’s B’s) as unrepresentative of their true brilliance.
Please spread the word. The "game" in college is NOT to maximize GPA. It's to maximize education, subject to the constraint of maintaining a decent GPA.
My own rule in graduate admissions: never accept anyone with a 4.0. And it's better if the person has gotten at least one "C." If there is no C in the record, it means the person is going to be just another loser who is really good at taking courses. If you could get a job taking courses, that would be the sort of person you want. But we want people who will take risks, and learn new things that are too hard to master on the first go.
(If it matters, this is self-serving, yes. I made two C's: one in an intermediate Art History class that was completely over my head, and one in Real Analysis. Finally, I made a "B" in my Intro Econ class. Nobody told me I was doing well. Because I wasn't.)
An extended discussion of the problem can be found in Megan McArdle's terrific new book, THE UP SIDE OF DOWN. It's really great, and it argues that students need to be encouraged to fail.
Or at least get a "B," fercrissakes.
(UPDATE: Claudia S. points out, on twitter [ @Claudia_Sahm ], that my "lecture" was almost certainly completely ineffective, and even counterproductive. And Claudia is right, of course. If someone is unsure of themselves then being yelled at in public by a creepy old guy like me is not really helpful. Another reader pointed out that this scene from Big Lebowski is apropos... Further, if the young woman had taken a course in math and gotten a "B," then she would no longer have thought she was "really good" at math. My point is that you should not just take courses in things in which you are already "really good", and courses in high school don't count! You need to try to get better at OTHER things. Staying inside your comfort zone is the whole problem! Figure out what you are "really bad" at, and then go take THOSE courses, to get better. So, either the young lady was "really good," and would make a good grade, or she would find out it was hard, and she wasn't really good, and so she needed to work hard to make a decent, maybe not even good, grade. That's why I look for a "C" in the transcript, as long as the course is a difficult one. Take something you are not "really good" at.)
